Okay, so I have a question regarding the Outside Triangle. Let’s say your adversary throws a right hand punch and you respond with a “inside triangle” left foot forward. You shift your weight to the left foot and slide your right toward your left and forward in one fluid motion…great, so far so good. But, what about the outside triangle footwork? If your adversary throws the same punch and you respond with an outside triangle, you must shift your weight to your left foot while you slide your right toward your left and into the “v” shape, then you have to shift your weight to the right foot so that you may then place your left foot at the top of the triangle…this is two separate motions and is going to be slower no matter how quick you are. This presents a tactical problem does it not?
Further more, with the inside triangle, you are placing your right hand forward along with your right foot…since you are responding to a right hand punch by your adversary, you are positioning yourself on the “blind side” of your adversary where you have both hands to work against their right hand only (the left being trapped by their own body being between it and you). Whereas with the outside triangle you are placing your left hand forward along with the left foot and creating a situation where both you and your adversary are presenting a “blind side”, there is no advantage to this position that I can see. With the inside triangle, I cut off my adversary’s use of their left hand and as I step in, I can place the inside of my right foot along the inside of their right foot eliminating the likelihood that they will be able to pull off any kicks as well. I have just removed the threat of their left hand, right foot and left foot (cause they’re standing on it), oh and I’ve trapped their right arm at the elbow. I have them trapped and can hit with impunity. With the outside triangle I don’t have these options…So, being that the outside triangle is going to be slower and result in less control and an inferior position relative to an inside triangle, what is the advantage to the outside triangle?
good question, alot of people have confusion about the “outside triangle” step. i’ll try and clear some of your concerns in an upcoming video when we address different “lines of attack” with the lead punch.
I was doing more research and found video footage of the following Sifu: Chung Kwok Chow from the Leung Shueng lineage, Randy Williams, Gary Lam and Wong Shun Leung all from the Ip Man lineage all demonstrating the Mook Jong and not one of them used the outside triangle throughout the form, but the inside triangle was used extensively. I did find however that Ip Man himself in the old black and white film from the (50s/60s not sure what year) demonstrating the Mook Jong used the outside triangle twice to deliver a kick at 1:00 minute and 1:03 minutes into the film, and also Chu Shong Tin a student of Ip Man did the same at 1:40 and 1:43 into the film of his Mook Jong. Obviously there will be differing interpretations of the forms taught, but the fact that there appears to be a preference for the inside triangle over the outside and the fact that you specifically stated the “v” shape of the feet together being used to prepare for a kick, I wonder why some may not use the outside triangle…any thoughts?
eek..that’s hard to say, David. you would have to ask them directly why they do or don’t use this step. IMO it probably has to do with how they were taught and their own personal preferences. Hawkins Cheung utilizes this step in many kicking drills. so i’m just passing on and sharing what was taught to me and what works for me. but yes, since wing chun is primarily the use of the hands, the inside triangle footwork is heavily focused.
Okay. Sorry, I used to drive my Sifu crazy with all of my questions. I was taught in a very traditional Chinese way with very little explanation and a lot of getting hit. As an American that has been taught to always ask why, I find your explanations and the way you have learned from Hawkins to be what I have been looking for. I guess I’m trying to see the logic behind the work from others as well. Trying to put the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together, you know?
I know EXACTLY what you’re talking about David. I wanna know what’s going on as opposed to getting socked over and over, and not even knowing what I’m doing wrong. Some people can learn that way. I am NOT one of them. Jin is obviously used to Americans and our continuous questions.
the better the questions, the better the answers, that’s always been how i see things. so i understand because i’m just like you, i want to know “how” and “why”, which is a sign of any good student. it’s just that most of the times, it’s very hard, for me, to answer questions, in words and find it easier to “show you” and it also helps everyone else who have the same types of questions.
Okay, so I have a question regarding the Outside Triangle. Let’s say your adversary throws a right hand punch and you respond with a “inside triangle” left foot forward. You shift your weight to the left foot and slide your right toward your left and forward in one fluid motion…great, so far so good. But, what about the outside triangle footwork? If your adversary throws the same punch and you respond with an outside triangle, you must shift your weight to your left foot while you slide your right toward your left and into the “v” shape, then you have to shift your weight to the right foot so that you may then place your left foot at the top of the triangle…this is two separate motions and is going to be slower no matter how quick you are. This presents a tactical problem does it not?
[Reply]
David Reply:
October 27th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Sorry, I meant responding with “a ‘inside triangle’ right foot forward” above.
[Reply]
Further more, with the inside triangle, you are placing your right hand forward along with your right foot…since you are responding to a right hand punch by your adversary, you are positioning yourself on the “blind side” of your adversary where you have both hands to work against their right hand only (the left being trapped by their own body being between it and you). Whereas with the outside triangle you are placing your left hand forward along with the left foot and creating a situation where both you and your adversary are presenting a “blind side”, there is no advantage to this position that I can see. With the inside triangle, I cut off my adversary’s use of their left hand and as I step in, I can place the inside of my right foot along the inside of their right foot eliminating the likelihood that they will be able to pull off any kicks as well. I have just removed the threat of their left hand, right foot and left foot (cause they’re standing on it), oh and I’ve trapped their right arm at the elbow. I have them trapped and can hit with impunity. With the outside triangle I don’t have these options…So, being that the outside triangle is going to be slower and result in less control and an inferior position relative to an inside triangle, what is the advantage to the outside triangle?
[Reply]
Jin Reply:
October 27th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
good question, alot of people have confusion about the “outside triangle” step. i’ll try and clear some of your concerns in an upcoming video when we address different “lines of attack” with the lead punch.
[Reply]
I was doing more research and found video footage of the following Sifu: Chung Kwok Chow from the Leung Shueng lineage, Randy Williams, Gary Lam and Wong Shun Leung all from the Ip Man lineage all demonstrating the Mook Jong and not one of them used the outside triangle throughout the form, but the inside triangle was used extensively. I did find however that Ip Man himself in the old black and white film from the (50s/60s not sure what year) demonstrating the Mook Jong used the outside triangle twice to deliver a kick at 1:00 minute and 1:03 minutes into the film, and also Chu Shong Tin a student of Ip Man did the same at 1:40 and 1:43 into the film of his Mook Jong. Obviously there will be differing interpretations of the forms taught, but the fact that there appears to be a preference for the inside triangle over the outside and the fact that you specifically stated the “v” shape of the feet together being used to prepare for a kick, I wonder why some may not use the outside triangle…any thoughts?
[Reply]
Jin Reply:
October 27th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
eek..that’s hard to say, David. you would have to ask them directly why they do or don’t use this step. IMO it probably has to do with how they were taught and their own personal preferences. Hawkins Cheung utilizes this step in many kicking drills. so i’m just passing on and sharing what was taught to me and what works for me. but yes, since wing chun is primarily the use of the hands, the inside triangle footwork is heavily focused.
[Reply]
Okay. Sorry, I used to drive my Sifu crazy with all of my questions. I was taught in a very traditional Chinese way with very little explanation and a lot of getting hit. As an American that has been taught to always ask why, I find your explanations and the way you have learned from Hawkins to be what I have been looking for. I guess I’m trying to see the logic behind the work from others as well. Trying to put the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together, you know?
[Reply]
I know EXACTLY what you’re talking about David. I wanna know what’s going on as opposed to getting socked over and over, and not even knowing what I’m doing wrong. Some people can learn that way. I am NOT one of them. Jin is obviously used to Americans and our continuous questions.
[Reply]
the better the questions, the better the answers, that’s always been how i see things. so i understand because i’m just like you, i want to know “how” and “why”, which is a sign of any good student. it’s just that most of the times, it’s very hard, for me, to answer questions, in words and find it easier to “show you” and it also helps everyone else who have the same types of questions.
[Reply]
I believe Robert Chu, another student of Hawkins said, “Let application be your teacher”. Or to quote the old Nike commercials…”Just do it”.
[Reply]
Jin Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
lol..nice
[Reply]